Summary

It's not easy being the head of data & analytics at a large organization. You must align a large team across multiple disciplines; you must deal with oodles of legacy systems and tools that hamper innovation; and you must deliver business value fast to keep executives at bay and your job intact. You also need to recruit dynamic managers who can push the envelope while meeting operational objectives. And when you falter--which you inevitably will-you have to rebound fast. 

No one knows these lessons better than Tiffany Perkins-Munn. She currently runs a 275-person data & analytics team at JP Morgan Chase that consists of data engineers, data scientists, behavioral economists, and business intelligence experts.  She thrives on versatility, having earned a Ph.D. in Social-Personality Psychology with an interdisciplinary focus on Advanced Quantitative Methods. Building on this foundation, she has accumulated vast experience in the art of managing data & analytics teams during her 23 years in technical and managerial roles in the financial services industry. 

In this interview, you’ll learn:

1. Tiffany’s secret for aligning a large data & analytics team and keep them from splitting into silos of specialization

2. Her favorite techniques for recruiting the right people to her team. 

3. How to wade through the thicket of legacy systems and deliver innovative solutions quickly. 

4. The impact of GenAI on her operations and the financial services industry. 

5. How to advance your careers in data & analytics.

Transcript

Wayne Eckerson 

Welcome everyone to the Secrets of Analytical Leaders podcast. It's not easy being the head of data and analytics at a large organization. You have to align a large team across multiple disciplines. You have to deal with oodles of legacy systems and tools at Amper Innovation, and you have to deliver business value fast to keep executives at bay and your job intact. You also need to recruit dynamic managers who can push the envelope while meeting operational objectives.

And when you falter, which you inevitably will, you have to rebound fast. Now, no one knows these lessons better than Tiffany Perkins-Munn. She currently runs a 275-person data and analytics team at JPMorgan Chase that consists of data engineers, data scientists, behavioral economists, and business intelligence experts. And she thrives on versatility. She earned a PhD in social personality psychology.

With an interdisciplinary focus on advanced quantitative methods. Whew, that makes me dizzy. Building on this foundation, she has accumulated vast experience in the art of managing data and analytics teams during her 23 years in technical and managerial roles in the financial services industry. Tiffany, welcome to the show.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn
Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Wayne Eckerson 

Well, let's dive right in. The big thing I want to ask you, you run a large team, one of the larger data and analytics teams that I've come across. So what's your secret for managing and aligning such a large team and keep it from splitting into various silos of specialization?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

So I would say that navigating through legacy systems in large, really large institutions to deliver, innovative solutions quickly is challenging. You're either coming into a new situation where those systems are already in place, or you're working to prevent the formation of silos. And so you have to have a thoughtful approach to leadership and organizational skills, right? And...

There are some things that I'm gonna mention that I think are pretty rudimentary, but I think they're super important. And so because they are so rudimentary, people often forget them. But I'll talk about them anyway in the context of some of the broader issues that I'll discuss. But the very first thing is really clearly defining the goals and objectives. So it sounds easy.

But try to put a lot of people in a room trying to lay out what those objectives are and you will quickly see that it's not as easy as it sounds, but really establishing a clear vision and a mission for the data and analytics team and being able to clearly communicate like the overarching goals and objectives to the entire team, right? To ensure that everyone understands the broader purpose. You understand how the work that you as an individual are doing ladders up to the...

Work that the broader team is doing, which ladders up to the broader vision of the firm. And so really laying that out clearly is important. Another really important point is that you should start really early because I find that trying to do this, so I've been in situations where I've been able to build this from scratch and I've been in situations where I've come into very siloed structures where then I try to incorporate this.

So encouraging cross-functional collaboration is critically, critically important. So you wanna foster a culture of collaboration by encouraging team members to work across functional boundaries. So even now, one of the things that I do with my team, even though there are over 250 or so of us, I have 15 minute tee times with any person. I'll have, if they're new, I'll talk to them, they'll join my call. And I say to them, pick up the phone.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

And talk to the person across the aisle from you. Make it a point of, there's a big team here. So when people are saying, you know, giving feedback that's saying, build a network and use your network, like you have a built-in network. You have 250 other colleagues that you can call, you can pick up the phone, you can tell them, oh.

Hi, my name is So-and-so and this is what I do on our team. What do you do on our team? Because that brings everyone closer together and it helps to understand how to implement like cross-functional projects, right? That might require collaboration from the different specialized teams that sit within our larger data and analytics organization. And in line with that is also this idea of really establishing common processes and standards.

So what are the common processes and standards for data management, analytics, and reporting across the team? We can't have one team doing it this way with one look and feel, one team structuring it that way with another look and feel, and different processes, right? So our goal is to implement tools and technologies that facilitate collaboration and streamline workflows. And when you do that, it will promote knowledge sharing.

Wayne Eckerson

Thanks, Ron.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Right? We're doing regular knowledge sharing sessions where team members can showcase their work, share insight, learn from each other. And in fact, we have an established, we've established a centralized repository for documentation and best practices. But this knowledge sharing piece is really important. We do lunch and learns. We'll bring in guest speakers. We'll do sessions. Lunch and learns are really more about here's a deep dive into someone's work.

And you can come learn about it and see if there's connectivity. But we also do sessions where it's really more about bring in any question, ask it, we'll have the leadership team there to weigh in on where we think it fits, who can answer that question for you, where you need to go to get sort of the execution for that initiative done, etc. So those are really, that's really important as well, this concept of

Building in a, you know, a tactical knowledge sharing procedure into your function. And that also, I think, contributes to skills and development, right? Because there is, there's the traditional way you get skills and development. You want people to stay up to date, obviously, with the latest technologies and methodologies. You want to promote a culture of learning and development. You do that with each other. And you also do that through more...

Um, standard learning and development opportunities, both inside and outside of the firm, you're going to conferences, you're learning about what people are doing across the industry, even outside of our industry, because I tend to be very interdisciplinary in my approach. And that involves really learning what other industries are doing, how we can leverage what they're doing. Now we are very in banking where I've spent the majority of my career. We are a very.

Regulated industry. So there are some guardrails, obviously, that we have to make sure that we stay within as we're thinking about data and analytics. But there are still methodologies. Just to give you an example, I can't just go out there and type something into chat GPT, right, related to the job, and just come up with a solution and go implement it at work. A, because I'm not allowed to take that information out of the walls of the firm.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

In order to put into this public domain kind of tool, right? So we do things like, oh, we'll build our own version of that, where we can put our, I mean, it's a large language model, right, where we can put our data into the model and then help us automate, iterate, answer questions that we have internally. So this idea of like...

Continuous training and skill development will happen across a number of different platforms in lots of different ways. And sometimes it can be internal and other times it can be external.

Wayne Eckerson

Okay, that was terrific. I like to unpack that a little bit. And I want to start with the most important question, which is what type of tea do you serve during tea time?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah, sure.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

You know what? Usually I'm drinking out of this coffee cup and you never know what's in that cup. It might be tea, it might be coffee, it could be something else. Who knows?

Wayne Eckerson

Yeah.

Wayne Eckerson

Okay, in all seriousness, you mentioned alignment around goals and objectives, and then cross functional alignment through collaboration. How long does that take in a large company like yours with 245 people? And do you ever get tired of trying to foster alignment? Don't you ever wish you could just come and say, hey, this is how it's going to be.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

It is an iterative, evolving, ongoing process. And the likelihood is, unless you're in a startup, you are rarely in a situation where you could build in those capabilities that I just mentioned from scratch. You're generally in a situation where you're coming into a team that's already developed, and now you want to implement those capabilities wherever you can. And so no, it's not easy. It is...

It is constantly evolving. You have, you're not only dealing with sort of data analytics and technology modernization, you're also dealing with people in process modernization, right? You have people who are used to doing things a certain way and kind of hesitate when change is recommended, right? You have processes that have been in sort of in play for so long, like even remembering who created this process, no one knows.

Because it happened so long ago, but it's still something that we use. And it works. So why are we doing something new? So it is this constant conversation and discussion. I know I laid out those, um, nice, you know, sort of articulate, um, capabilities, but it doesn't happen nearly that easily. It requires lots of conversations, discussions.

Um, understanding from people who are newly coming in, like, what have you seen? What have you done? What's out there that maybe we don't know about partnering with your peers across different groups. Um, you need operations, you need technology, you need legal and compliance, you know, and making sure that whatever it is you're doing is clear and understandable to senior leadership around the firm. So all of this is happening simultaneously. You're not just on your team trying to make this happen.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

You're partnering in lots of different ways so that it will be a successful activity that you're implementing.

Wayne Eckerson

So I'm going to guess that this is going to require, when you come in new to this large team, it's going to take you at least a year and dozens and dozens of meetings to get alignment to where you want it. Is that fair? Yeah. Okay.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

No, I think it takes longer than a year, actually. I think you can, so for me, I set the strategy. This is what we're gonna do. This is how we're gonna do it. We're gonna start engaging like this in this way. We're gonna start having lunch and learns, and we're gonna start bringing the team together, even over Zoom in more meaningful ways. We're gonna start introducing individuals. So you become knowledgeable about who an individual is versus that team or that capability.

It all takes time. So we've been at this, let's say for a year now, and we're getting to a place where we are starting to, because remember it has to, this message that we are talking about and professing needs to go deep into our organization. And I would say if there are, let's say five levels to our organization, at this year mark, we are about three levels in. I still talk to people who say things like,

Oh, I'd like to understand better how our broader team goals ladder up to the organization. So there's still work to be done. I would say that we are all much closer to that after a year, but this is a year where we have been critically and crucially focused on disseminating this information through the team, building those partnerships, helping people to sort of reimagine who they are.

Where they sit, who they should be talking to, right? You're asking people to do something that they're not used to doing, that they don't do well. So you have to take all of that into account and just accept incremental wins, right? Except when people pick up the phone and actually call someone and say, and then all of a sudden you learn that there's a new initiative that's being created because of that communication. Like that's an incremental win and you have to accept those.

And just keep, you know, sort of plugging along as you continue to infiltrate, if you will, the broader organization.

Wayne Eckerson

So is this like a sideshow to your real job or is this your job? Because it's a lot of work when you just.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

It's your job. It is definitely the job of the leader of the team to bring that team together so that it can be most effective and most impactful. And basically you have to do what it takes to do it. But that doesn't mean you do it alone. Yes, it's my job. But then I delegate it to lots of my counterparts, to lots of my team. Like, here's what we're trying to do. You know, you bring people along on the journey so they don't feel like, oh my God, here she is imposing this new thing on us.

You make them, you get them involved, you get them excited, you help them to see target state, what this will lead to, what this will mean for the team, how it will elevate the work that they're doing and the quality of the work that they're doing and the connectivity of the work that they're doing. And it becomes everyone's job. So it's not just my job, it's all 200 and whatever. It's all of our jobs, right? And people start to see that as part of what they are expected to do. And then it becomes over time.

It becomes just second nature. As part of my job, I also am responsible for this.

Wayne Eckerson 

Yeah, so this is interesting at this level with this size team. I mean, your job is really, I would say, about creating a culture of collaboration. And that's really it's pure leadership. That's what a leader does is create the right culture where everyone can thrive and work together to achieve those goals.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes. And it's such a critical component. I think people think, oh, you know, like you're the chief data and analytics officer or you're running this like big data and analytics team or, and it's, and they think you are out there like coding Python, you know, like running AI, and that's all happening within your team. But you are really given that role to be the leader.

Wayne Eckerson 

Yeah.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

To bring all of those pieces together, to make sure you have the right people doing the right job, to make sure that you are responsible for elevating the work of the team to the broader firm, so that the firm understands the impact. And none of that is, it's the kind of thing that you learn to do over time. It's not even something that there's no course for, you know, per se, that would kind of teach you how to be in the weeds and actually get that done at scale to that degree.

Wayne Eckerson

Yeah, I typically work with leaders who are running smaller teams and their challenge is that they do get sucked into the day to day projects and the fighting of the fires. And they don't have enough time to really focus on creating the culture and exhibiting the leadership skills that are really required. But let's talk about people. You said you couldn't do this alone.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Right.

Wayne Eckerson 

How do you get the right people on your team and get the wrong people off your team? Which goes back to, you know, getting people on the bus and off the bus. Who was the guy who wrote that famous management book? Right.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes, Well, the first thing you have to do obviously is clearly define the job roles and responsibilities. A lot of times I see people are hiring, like we're hiring data scientists, you know? And it's like, to do what exactly? Like, what do you want them to do? Or people get caught up in AI, AI. So now they wanna hire all these people who can do AI. The reality is in any firm.

There is a continuum of problems that need to be solved. Many of those problems, by the way, don't require AI, don't require even a logistic regression, right? Don't require anything more than some descriptive statistics to help us understand what's happening. And it might lead to something that's more machine learning or AI driven, but it doesn't start there. I mean, there are problems that are specifically met.

For like generative AI, obviously, or a deep reinforcement model, for example. But I would say that there are an equal number of problems that don't require that. So be very clear about the articulation of roles and responsibilities for each position within the data analytics team. Like what are the skills? What are the qualifications? What's the experience that's needed in the role? And when you talk about the role, you know, make it detailed and engaging.

A job description that actually will highlight like the unique challenges and opportunities that the candidate will face. I often, I've put out roles for like data wranglers, like come join our team to be a data wrangler, come join our team to be a storyteller, because often I find that people can do the technical part, but try having them take a very complicated analytical exercise, think like structural equation modeling.

And communicate that to someone who is equally as intelligent, but doesn't speak that language, they can't do it, right? They're used to being, or tell, walk someone through your code for why this makes sense for the objective. They can't do it. So this idea that you need to learn to take the information and turn it into a story is a very crucial, exciting.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

But crucial part of when you're writing a compelling job description, what your expectations are of people. Yeah, go ahead.

Wayne Eckerson

You know, I think that communication skills are the biggest underappreciated talent in technical people. Speaking, they have to learn to speak the language of business if they want to be successful and truly advance in their careers. They get too focused on the data and too focused on the analytics and they don't really see the person across the table from them and what they're thinking and what they need to hear. One of them.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes. Exactly. That's right.

Wayne Eckerson

One of the recommendations that I provide that I got from someone who ran a center of excellence in analytics for large financial firms was that she schooled her analysts in what questions to ask business people when you were starting a project. Right. And the biggest one, what are you trying to accomplish? Right. And are you ready to implement the findings?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah.

Wayne Eckerson

Efficient expedition. And then on the flip side, when you finally have an answer to the question, put it all on one slide. In other words, you really have to summarize it, the problem, the solution, and then you get like this much space to talk about, you know, what you do. Yeah, but that's hard from a lot of technical folks.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes. What you did. That's right.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

I think, but it is a skill that if they practice, they will learn. Like when someone comes to us and they say, can you do, you know, we want to look at some uplift in some campaign or we want to understand how customers are doing X, Y or Z. Our first question is like, what is your objective? Right? Like, tell me the objective. The second question is when we get the results, because we're going to lay out a measurement plan and we know what we're going to be measuring in advance, right?

When we get the results, good or bad, how are you going to use them? And if you can't clearly articulate those two questions, then you should rethink whether or not you should ever be doing the exercise anyway. But the utilization, because people will sometimes ask you to do things that are nice to haves, not necessary, right? And because you have the skillset. And there's a place for sort of like that exploratory, let's just see what we can find kind of exercises for sure.

But, when there are revenue opportunities on the line or customer experience improvement opportunities on the line, you want to make sure that you are working on those things that are going to get you to that goal faster. And so you want to be very particular about the projects that you decide that you're going to work on. And so going back to the person who's asking and having them really have a clear understanding of those two questions, what's the objective and how will you use the results really helps them to hone in on the criticality or the importance or lack thereof of the initiative.

Wayne Eckerson

Right, and gives you reason to walk away if they don't have a good answer, right? Yeah.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah, for sure. Like, oh, go think about that, and then when you've thought about it, let's talk more.

Wayne Eckerson

Yeah, because, you know, our folks are, you know, their time is really valuable. We don't want to waste it on expeditions. We want to move the needle for the organization. So let me switch gears a little bit here. You mentioned early on, you know, legacy systems. And we know that at any large organization, and you come in on this new team, you are beset with lots of legacy systems and must feel like this, you know, thousand pound weight that's just keeping you from doing anything.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes.

Wayne Eckerson 

Interesting, cool or innovative, right? Or even just achieving your goal. So how do you deal with the thicket of legacy systems and break through that to do innovative things?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Well, the first thing you do is you have to do an inventory of legacy systems. Like what are, what, what's really inside? How does it work? I think people come in a lot into a, into a place where there are lots of legacy systems and they just want to hit the ground running. Everybody wants to hit the ground running. Of course, but you really have to spend some time interrogating what systems are in place, how does data flow through those systems?

How might they connect to other technologies that you want to bring in? Is this a build or buy scenario? How robust is the actual data flowing through those systems? Like there are legacy systems, and as I mentioned before, legacy processes. And that all has to be interrogated upfront to really understand where you can go with it. It's nothing you can do about it. You're not going to, you know, I've gone into situations before where their legacy systems and then someone leaves. And so instead of like getting a new system, they just build something on top of that system and build something on top of that system. And sometimes it's so involved that you can't get to the source of truth at the beginning. And so you have to figure out it's so, my point is that it's not just about unwinding that. Sometimes you just have to pivot like, okay, here we are. This is what we have. 

This is what we need for target state or for in the ideal scenario and how do we go about developing, creating functionality either around the legacy system, removing the legacy system, you know, you have to do what's best for your business or like on top of the legacy system that gets us to future state. So I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer for that. It all depends on how integrated the legacy system is to the current operations of the business.

And, when it requires like a complete overhaul, which sometimes it does, people are sometimes hesitant because they're like, oh, we'll just keep doing it the way we've always done it because that's just too much and that'll slow down business. I think you have to go into it holding hands with the CEO & CMOs of the businesses and help them understand the roadmap of development to this new way of being, to this new way of operating and be very transparent.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Like there's a period of time where your analyst won't be able to access X, Y, and Z, or where we won't be able to generate this report. However, when we get to target state, guess what? Your analyst will be able to click a button and that report will be automated. You will be able to go in and look at that report yourself. It will now be self-serve, right? Like there are all these things that will make it better in target state, but you have to take people on that journey with you.

Otherwise you do work and then you come to them and they're like, oh my God, what are you doing? So it's really important to sort of infiltrate the legacy systems, right? To bring people along on that journey. So they understand not only like this nice, lovely, shiny thing at the end that's gonna transform the business, but all of the obstacles along the way that you want to hold hands with them to overcome.

Wayne Eckerson

Yeah.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

So that they aren't taken aback when a system is down, they can't execute a campaign the way they had originally done it, but it's all collaborative in nature.

Wayne Eckerson

Now, a lot of executives don't understand the complexity of the systems that are running their organization, how they're interdependent, how hard it is to change them, do new things. Do they ever get frustrated? Well, I know they get frustrated with people in your position because they want something done. They want it done soon and they don't want to wait. How do you deal with that?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Oh yeah, all the time, all the time. All you do is walk people through what it takes. Like, okay, you want to bring in this new system that will allow us to do X, Y, and Z. Okay, well, in order to bring that new system in, to connect it to our system, here are the technological steps that need to happen. Technology will need to do the following five things. Then after technology has done those five things, which, you know, we'll set out a roadmap for what that will include.

Then we need a period of testing, because you don't want to bring in something that doesn't work. And that testing involves these five steps. These are the teams that will need to do the testing. So I think you have to, it's only when you go to the executives with, like, this great idea that without a plan, right? And if you say, Listen, I've spoken to finance.

I've worked with technology to lay out the plan for what technology will need to do. I've worked with operations to understand what the obstacles are. Let's all come to the table. Everybody agrees this is what it takes. Then they know what it takes, right? It's not like you're going, but that, by the way, even though it sounds easy, it's not easy. Trying to get all of those people, you know, sort of on the same page about what's gonna happen, what needs to happen. Sometimes people have to go back and do research.

Like, in order to connect that technology to this technology, let me figure out. And then I have to go talk to the engineers and they might have to go talk to a product specialist and that process takes time. So all of this, bringing all of that together to actually create the roadmap that will lead to this, you know, wonderful end state takes time. And I always caution people like, just be aware that it's a great idea, but it will take time and you should always be put it, because they get very impatient to your point.

And they're like, where is it? You said it was, you've got to do this. And you said it was going to do that. When they do that, it's because people have not taken the time to walk. And it's, you have to, by the way, you don't just walk them through it and then go off and do it. It's like every meeting, every standing meeting you have, which should be at least monthly, you're talking about this thing, whatever it is. And you're reiterating how much time it's going to take.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

What the obstacles and challenges have been, what the incremental progress is that you've made, what some of the wins are to date, like you're bringing it all together. So they know, oh, every meeting I'm gonna understand like what's impeding us, what's, you know, how, what progress we've made, et cetera. And, but you have to build that muscle. It's a muscle you have to build.

Wayne Eckerson

Yeah, so very systematic. Listen, I want to finish up our conversation here, which, by the way, I could keep talking to you for hours, but we only have a limited amount of time. I want you to provide some career advice to our listeners, and I want you to provide career advice in the context of lessons that you've learned, right? Getting to where you are. So, you know, people who want to maybe get to where you are, what

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes.

Wayne Eckerson

What things should they do and then not do based on your own experience?

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah, I think the one of the key things, and this is going to sound like a little, you know, cheesy and cheeky, but it is networking. I have moved from almost every job to the next job through a network, like through someone I knew at a prior job. And I think people are, you know, some people are really good at networking and other people are not that good. They're more introverted. They don't feel comfortable. It's not like you're building, like, you might build lifelong friendships with some of the people in your network.

But, you're really just building connectivity so that you open yourself up for people to call and ask you questions and offer, ask for your assistance so that then on the flip side, you're able to do that same thing. So I would say that internally and externally. So on your team, because remember this is what I'm saying to my team, like you guys have a built-in network, but also more broadly across the organization because there are people who are doing what you do someplace else in the organization that's not on your team.

And I remember when I was at my former job, I basically just looked through the phone book. I just Googled research analytics and data. And I found people who were doing research analytics and data sitting in other places. And I just called them. I said, hey, I'm doing research analytics and data over here, you're doing research analytics and data over there. Let's have a conversation, right? And so then you start to build those relationships.

So, every single way that you could think about networking, internally, externally, conferences, friends, coffees, you know, pick people randomly and go have a coffee for, you know, a quick coffee catch up every month. Like there are these things that you have to build into the way that you like build relationships. The second thing though is upskilling. Like you should always be on an upskilling journey. I am constantly on an upskilling journey. I am learning AI is new. Yes, I'm a statistician.

AI is brand new. People are learning about it. We're moving into how to build the models themselves, how to make them, because right now they're sort of historical data. How do you create generative AI? How should we be thinking? That's all new. It's so many new things. So I am constantly, even me, upskilling. I'm looking for courses. I'm reading literature. I'm thinking about, I'll take a course just to see if I think it's relevant.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

For my colleagues to see, oh, is this something they can learn from quickly? Will it give them the right kind of feedback and guidance? But really thinking about that and small things, upskilling, taking advantage of opportunities in-house to learn more skills. But also if you see things externally that you wanna do, introducing those to your organization, like really make that a part of like your way of being an employee.

You know, just always looking for opportunities to learn more, to learn the newest technology, to stay a sort of... And it's not about knowing every single tool, technology, etc. in detail. It's about knowing how do you take the capabilities of that tool and technology and then apply it to the situations that you have in front of you. You can always find someone who will do the coding or the implementation or the execution. So, but you...

Wayne Eckerson
Right.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

You will have your own expertise and your own right, but that's not to say that you need to be an expert on every single data and technology tool.

Wayne Eckerson 

Oh, right, Well, great, upscaling and networking. Those are fantastic bits of career advice. And that networking brings us full circle to where we started, talking about getting your own employees and staff to network inside the organization to build that culture of collaboration so that everyone's aligned and moving towards the same direction.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yeah! I think those are the two most important for sure.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Yes.

Wayne Eckerson 

Well, this was fantastic, Tiffany. Thank you so much. And we'll be in touch.

Tiffany Perkins-Munn

Lovely! Thank you, it was a joy. Thank you for having me.